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The Man in Black

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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:03 pm

Speaking of thoroughbreds, there was a top show mare back in the 40s that was out of a thoroughbred mare. She never won a World Championship but did win several reserves and placed high in the WGC a couple of times. Can anyone besides Bubbadog name her?
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Bubbadog

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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:11 pm

Chave - that ain't fair - have I been expelled from class?
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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:16 pm

No, you just have to stand in the corner for this one.
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Everett

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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:18 pm

Boy when i said throw it , you did, somebody on here might know the answer but i know Nothing about TB'S Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:25 pm

The Man in Black wrote:
No, you just have to stand in the corner for this one.

Just send me a message when it's okay to come out of the corner.
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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:35 pm

E, this mare was out of a thoroughbred mare, but she showed as a Walking Horse. She was sired by Merry Boy.
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Everett

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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:42 pm

Jim, I should know that but i'm having a Brain freeze
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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:51 pm

TMIB,

Merry Gypsy Rose
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The Man in Black

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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:47 pm

You got it DB.
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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:56 pm

smitty wrote:
Let's see if someone can name a Standardbred, Thoroughbred, Saddlebred and Morgan who were key breeding contributors to the TWH.......

Question

A good way to trace these is to go to www.allbreedpedigree.com. They have pedigrees on about 1.5 million horses including many TWHs. You can trace your favorite "name" TWH all the way back to The Darley Arabian or The Byerly Turk [foundation sires of Thoroughbreds & therefore the other breeds, too].
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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:45 pm

What well known TWH was sometimes rumored to be out of a mare with German Coach Horse blood?
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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:47 pm

Midnight Sun
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The Man in Black

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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:48 pm

SB,
He's the one.
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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:52 pm

I almost fell over. I went over to that allpedigreeonline site and typed in the Kinmans' horses. One popped up.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/my+own+mae

When I was a little snip, they used to lead me around on her dam Sparkle. Sparkle had some other babies that I know of -- Sparkle's Big Man (a tall black sabino) and Ramblin' On (a sabino bay roan.)

And, yes, my handle Rambler is in honor of Ramblin' On.
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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:59 am

Maninblack,
I didn't see Justin Morgans (Figure) name mentioned as a Morgan sire. Preacher Tolbert Fanning of the Church of Christ (then the Desciples of Christ) was an early Morgan breeder in this area. You have mentioned a horse that I haven't ran across before in PACELOT. Please enlighten Us on Him.
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smitty
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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:03 am

Here's a little historic info on the influence of other breeds on the TWH. (borrowed from the WW website)


Thoroughbred
By 1780, racing in England had developed to the level of a national classic race at Epsom Downs, to choose the outstanding Thoroughbred in existence at that time. This race was won by a horse called DIOMED, who was later transported to Virginia. 150 years later, when the Foundation registry was being chosen for the Tennessee Walking Horse breed, over 60 of the selected horses traced to this English Derby winner. Every World Grand Champion Walking horse traces back to DIOMED.

Morgan
The pedigree of Justin Morgan is uncertain, but generally believed to be as follows:
He was sired by a Thoroughbred named TRUE BRITON, and his dam was allegedly a daughter of DIAMOND. If this is true, then Justin Morgan traced to the three horses which were the foundations stallions for all Thoroughbreds, THE GOLDOLPHIN ARABIAN, THE DARLEY ARABIAN, and THE BYERLY TURK. Justin Morgan imparted different traits to the different breeds that he was crossed with. To the American Saddlebred, he gave beauty, action and military bearing. To the Morgan, he imparted strength and the ability to trot with great endurance. The blood of three of his most famous sons, SHERMAN MORGAN, BULLRUSH and WOODBURY MORGAN when combined with the blood of the great HAMBLETONIAN, dominated the American Racing scene for generations.
The two families of Morgan blood that are most closely connected to the development of the Tennessee Walking horses are the RATTLERS and the BULLETS.


Standardbred
In 1788, the importation of the great Thoroughbred stallion, MESSENGER brought much need size and stamina to the American horses.
Through the Messenger son, RYSDYK'S HAMBLETONIAN, Tennessee Walking horses gained the bloodlines of GEORGE WILKES and DICTATOR, who sired the foundation horses, ALLAN F-1, and WALTER DIRECT. HAMBLETONIAN was also the ancestor of ECHO through a horse called Harold.
The Standardbred blood that can be found in the Tennessee Walking horse pedigrees is that of ALLAN F-1, the HALS, DIRECTS, and the BROOKS horses. The main sire from the Chief family was HARRISON'S CHIEF, a descendant of Messenger who later established a family of Walking horses in Middle Tennessee. The native mares who formed the foundation blood of the Standardbreds were the same HALS, PILOTS, and COPPERBOTTOMS who were the basis of the American Saddlebred and Tennessee Walking horse breeds.


Saddlebred
It was the Denmark son, GAINES' DENMARK, foaled in 1851, that set the Saddlebred on its course to excellence. One of Gaines' Denmark's prominent sons, DIAMOND DENMARK, was out of a mare by BALD STOCKINGS, the first horse known to do a running walk. The Denmarks were eventually crossed in 1880 to the CHIEF clan, which traces to the famous Thoroughbred, MESSENGER, who became the foundation Sire of the Standardbred breed. The main sire from the Chief family was HARRISON'S CHIEF, who later established a family of Walking horses in Middle Tennessee.
By 1908, all the foundation sires of the American Saddlebred were eliminated with the exception of DENMARK, due to the overwhelming percentage of registered American Saddlebred colts that traced to him. Even though Denmark was the foundation stallion for the American Saddle Horse breed, and contributed to other American breeds, including the Tennessee Walking horse, he was not easy-gaited. It was the "Stevenson" or "Cockspur" mare, tracing directly back to the Narragansetts, when bred to Denmark who brought the easy gaits to their foal. This cross brought together the beauty, finish, and hot blood of his sire, and the hereditary and acquired Saddle qualities of his dam. A study of the Tennessee State Fair winners of the early 1900's reveals the influence of GIOVANNI family which represented the last significant outcross of blood into the Tennessee Walking Horse. This one-eyed, black Kentucky Saddle Horse stallion by Dandy Jim II (1531 ASR), by Macdonald Chief was brought to Tennessee by Henry Davis in 1914. He was described as a fine black, about 15.3 hands, who sired some of the best looking and most durable Walking horses ever seen at that time. He lived to be 38 years old, and died in 1940. His most significant contribution to the Tennessee Walking Horse breed was to sire Wiser's Dimples, the dam of Merry Go Boy.
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deltaboy

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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:45 am

SB,

According to The Echo of Hoofbeats, Mr. Fanning imported Vermont Boy into Middle Tenn. [near Lavergne] in the late 1850's. He was probably the first Morgan in Middle Tenn. He was the sire of Bullet.

Gen. Jackson imported Pacelot from Virginia in 1811 to run against the great race mare Haynie's Maria. They could not beat the great mare, but Pacelot became a very prominent sire in Middle Tenn. & an ancestor of Walking Horses through Empire Hal & Brown Allen.
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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:55 pm

I'm thinking I saw some old ads in a Blue Ribbon and Milky Way Farms and Oakwood Acres and quite a few other prominat farms in Middle Tennessee raised thoroughbreds.
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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:59 am

MIB,

Milky Way Farm was a huge Thoroughbred & Hereford operation [32 stone barns, one of which was over 300 ft. long]. They won the 1940 Kentucky Derby with Gallahadion. They had only a few Walking Horses. Mike Carpenter's father was the original farm manager. Several of us got to tour the place last August. It was the first time I had been there in over 40 years. Maryland Farms in Brentwood was mainly a Saddlebred operation, but they had some TB's [& a few WH's]. Haynes Haven had mainly Saddlebreds & Walking Horses, but they may have had a few Thoroughbreds. It was a great Standardbred nursery before Col. Haynes bought it [home of Billy Direct, among others]. Harlinsdale had Hereford cattle, Saddlebreds & Walking Horses. I'm not sure if Oakwood had any Thoroughbreds or not.
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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:34 pm

DB & MIB,
The back cover of the 40 Blueribbon has a picture of Milky Ways 40 Kentucky Derby winner Galahadion. Frank Mars had & showed Saddlebreds. Right before He died they got into the Thorobreds. Oakwood Acres only had TWH's & dairy cattle. Maryland Farms had Colonel Allen a TWH stallion & American Ace an ASB. Haynes Haven had Haynes Peacock 40 & 41 TWH WGC, Torcido Chief ASB stallion & Lew Axworthy a standardbred stallion. The Nelsons at Old Home Place (Jeff Givens barn) in Murfreesboro had racing standardbreds. They had a litup TWH on the front cover of a Southern Horseman in the 40's. They started out with TWH's in Ohio. Since Wilson Farm was at Gallatin, a hotbed for T Breds in M Tn, They might have had race horses at one time, but I don't know. Early in His career Richard Wall worked with race horses. JT Leech showed ASB's before marrying Marrianne. Max Luther from Huntsville showed some TWH's & alot of ASB's. He has a street named after him in Huntsville. His brother Neal had a tack shop in Arab & hasn't been dead long.
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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:11 pm

I believe Bud Dunn started out with ASB horses.
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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:37 pm

HUCK MOSS STARTED OUT WORKING FOR JOHN BRIGHT (I THINK) IN KY - HE HAD FINE HARNESS POMIES FOR LON COURTNEY FROM JOHNSTON SC FOR A LONG TIME.
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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:35 am

Bubbadog
Huck was still showing a few Road Ponies when i was in Augusta
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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:07 am

Bob McQuerry also started out with Hackeys, if I'm not mistaken. I believe he worked for John Bright as well. Ronnie Spears also worked Hackneys in Scottsville, Ky or so I heard.
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PostSubject: Re: Trivia Archive 5   Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:29 am

Smitty - Seems like I remember Huck mentioning that Bob had worked for John Bright also.
When Huck came back from Ky he brought Remember Go Boy with him - he was known as Pap and Huck showed him in stake classes for a long time.
He sired some pretty decent colts. I don't remember what happened to him.
Do you MIB?
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